Ben Telfer:

Hello, everybody, and welcome to today’s ICMIF webinar, the first ICMIF webinar of 2025. Today we’re going to be looking at a strategic outlook for insurers for the year 2025, driving growth for advanced technology and data capabilities. Delighted to be joined by two leaders from ICMIF supporting member EY. Today, we’ve got Isabelle Santenac who’s the EY global insurance leader, and Jennifer Baziuk, who’s EY Canada Insurance Consulting Leader. Those who were at the ICMIF Conference last year in Buenos Aires, will recognise Isabelle and Jennifer, two speakers on the agenda and delighted they can join us today and share more about EY’s Global Insurance outlook for 2025 and also dive a bit deeper into some recent research that ICMIF and EY have conducted in terms of looking at some of the strategic issues high on the agendas for mutual insurance leaders around the world. So, delighted to welcome Isabelle and Jennifer today. I’m going to hand over to Isabelle to kick us off. Isabelle?

Isabelle Santenac:

Yeah, thank you very much Ben, and thank you for inviting us to present on those two important reports. I will start with presenting our 2025 global insurance outlook, which has just been released a few days ago, which focused on three major themes. The first one is how to navigate in a volatile and complex market landscape. The second one is to pursue multiple paths to growth. Growth is really at the forefront of all the strategy of the insurers right now. And the third one, not surprisingly, is how to enable transformations with data, technology, and talent. So if we start with the first theme, navigating a volatile and complex market landscape, of course, everyone sees that almost every day. We are living in a very uncertain environment with a lot of geopolitical risks, trade tensions in ’24, more than the half of the population in the world has voted for a new president and that has significant consequences also on bilateral relationships with some countries.

We see also some slowing economic growth which has to be taken into account. Of course, there are still good positive signals. I think the capital markets continue to be quite strong and as generated over the last at least two years, quite significant results for the insurance companies. Inflation has declined and continues to be contained, and the interest rates have also declined slightly, but stay at the level which is reasonable, I would say, so positive signals, but of course we expect a lot to come this year with some new direction for politicians in particular from the US. And so, I think it’ll be an interesting year. The war continue to occur in many parts of the world, which is quite a sad aspect of where we live, but hopefully, ’25 will see an end to some of those wars, and all of that is creating quite a protectionism agenda in many parts of the world as well, which has of course, an impact on how to manage the capital flows, but also how to ensure that we can manage on an optimised way global organisation.

I think when you hear what was said in Davos, I think everyone has quite some concern about what is happening in Europe and whether Europe will manage to, I would say, wake up. And as a European, I would really like that Europe can wake up and be a significant actor in the economical maybe rebalancing, which is going to happen in the coming months or years. So when you are a global player, you have to navigate through all those uncertainties. I think you need more and more to be used to have some crisis management because very regularly somewhere in the world there is a crisis. So you have to be used to be in this crisis management mode and to ensure that you can manage your scenario planning, et cetera in the best agile way. If we look at what’s happening on the regulatory front, so here as well, everyone is expecting that the US administration is going to soften regulation.

In the meantime, Europe has strengthened quite a lot of the regulation. When you see what has been put in place with DORA last month in January, when you see the AI EU Act, when you see FIDA, et cetera, for open insurance, a lot, and CSRD also on the ESG agenda, a lot is happening in Europe and so you really see that there is no more, I would say, level playing field between the various countries. I don’t think there are anytime a level playing field, but still it was maybe more aligned than what we are going to see in the future. So here as well, there is arbitrage to be made and how to direct the capital flows will be also something very important to watch in the coming months. And finally, I will mention the evolving societal needs with, of course, the risk of riots more and more, which has, of course, an impact for the insurance industry with political tensions with, I would say a lot of oppositions more than consensus in many countries where governments have difficulties to really have majority to push for their actions.

So that is something which has also to be factored into the strategies. And of course, the evolution of the demographics. We see decreasing natality rate. When you see some statistics in the EU, the ratio of pensioners to working-age population is currently 1.3, and by 2050 it’ll be 1.2. In China, it’s currently 1.5, it’ll be 1.2 or so by 2050. And so, the consequence of that is how to ensure pensions will continue to be at the level expecting for the retiring people. And so, insurance will have a role to play as well to think about new ways of providing pensions or helping people to prepare better for their retirements. So overall, when you see this very volatile, uncertain market environment, for the insurers, and more particularly for the ones operating internationally, there is a need to be agile to define multiple scenarios, to stress test the various results of those scenarios. You need to ensure that you have the right pressure on your cost to maintain profitability and to be able to invest for transforming the business or for acquiring new business.

And I would say maybe the last comment here is it’s important to try to think about what you don’t know and what could happen. As I mentioned, there is almost a need to be used to manage crisis, but how can you anticipate crisis and what could happen tomorrow is something which is more and more important in this environment. So the second theme we are focusing on in our global insurance outlook is the need to grow. And as I mentioned in the introduction, I think it’s on the agenda of every insurer to focus on growth. Of course, there was growth coming from the increasing rates that we saw in the last couple of years, but that is coming to maybe a plateau and even sometimes it’s decreasing. So what are the new sources of growth? What we see on large commercial and insurance is the agenda on cyber, which is always an area where companies need more protection and there is a need here to be able to help them and to provide maybe new solutions on the cyber risk that exists today.

Of course, it’s a very complex topic, it can be quite a systemic risk, but what are the solutions that insurers could work on to help protecting more the economy on that? The other topic of course of opportunities, but also which creates a lot of challenges is the climate risk. So again, need for protection but need also to ensure that the risk is prevented better and is mitigated better. I think overall on those two topics, there is a need to innovate and to find new solutions to help the companies to protect themselves against those risks, at least partially. If we go to more the personal lines, of course on this one, personalization and the simplifications are key and a lot of insurers are working on this agenda, but it’s not that easy to simplify products. And of course, digitalization is critical because customers expect more and more today to have a digital service because that’s what they are used to have on many other services they buy.

So how can you provide flexible products, including usage-based coverage is something very important. How can you bundle products? How can you embed more your insurance product into broader offerings? That is something that a lot of you are working on currently. On the life insurance I mentioned earlier, the big challenge for pensions, I think that’s for sure something that the industry has a lot to do and it’s a significant opportunity, but how to help more the people to prepare for their retirement and to have more protection type of products as well. I think that is going to be key for growth and innovation here as well is going to be important. So whether, I would say, personal lines or life insurance, I think also the additional challenge here is how the industry can educate more the youngest generation about understanding the risks they have today or tomorrow and how can they protect themselves against those risks. And I think there is a generation coming into the adult age which doesn’t really understand what are the risks and certainly is quite far from understanding how insurance can help them.

So that is also a significant opportunity for the industry for tomorrow. And finally, the third theme that we are exploring is how to transform your operation, your business to be more innovative, more agile, to enable more growth, and how to transform that through technology and talent. So of course, on the technology front, I think there is an acceleration in technology changes. Maybe two years ago, a lot of companies were not totally up for being a front-runner on technology changes, but more a fast follower. There is a perception now that the acceleration of changes is fast and is increasing, and that if it’s difficult to bet that you will be a close follower if you don’t change now, the gap may be too big to tackle. And so there will be potentially the winners but also the ones lagging behind, which will be the losers. So this acceleration of change in the technology world certainly is going to put more pressure on the need to transform.

Data is an absolutely imperative. How do you manage data? How do you have the right data? Not only because it’s the best way to know your clients and to personalise and customise your product, but also with artificial intelligence coming, you need to feed those models with data. So, data in a way is a new build and there is a lot to do in the insurance industry to ensure that you have again, the right data and that they are… That the foundation is the right one for building on it. And then of course, the AI aspect, I think everyone is speaking about generative AI and it’s piloting. I think, what we see now is that some insurers now move out of the pilot mode and startup mode more to scale up with use cases being implemented. As I mentioned earlier, I think there is acceleration on this topic. So I think people need to move faster. Of course, there are risks. Of course, there is regulation to comply with. Of course, there is also the ethical way of using AI.

So, you need to have the right governance, the right guardrails. But on this topic, as I mentioned, I think you cannot wait and see what others do. I think you need to embrace that concept, test it, and then deploy it. And that’s what we see, by the way. Most of the insurance leaders really believe that they, at first, they put money on the table for AI, but they really believe that they need to accelerate on that. And then you have the technology agenda. So in addition to your data, how to ensure that you also, you have the right platforms to be able to talk with your partners to serve your clients on a digital way. Really investing in your technology platform is an imperative. There is a tendency now to not go through significant IT transformation but more agile type of IT transformation. And we believe that’s the right way to do it, to continue to be agile, to have return on investment easily.

And as I mentioned, the technology changed so fast that if you go through significant long-term transformation plan, implementation plan, at the end of your project, you have the risk to be outdated already. So more and more, we see that shift towards more agile technology transformation. But for doing all of that, that requires quite a lot of effort on how to have the right skills, the right talents, how to embark also your workforce on all this transformation. When you think about what has happened over the last two to three years from a technology perspective with cloud, which start a little bit earlier, but cloud generative AI, I think it’s important that your talents follow this trend. There is, of course, some worry about whether some functions will disappear, what will be the underwriter of tomorrow in a world of generative AI? It certainly will be different than the role today, but that doesn’t mean that you will not need underwriters. Of course, you will need underwriters, but they’ll do their work differently. And it’s the same for each and every function.

So how to transform your talent pool, how to upgrade the skills of your people. When you see some stats also on the age of the employees in the insurance industry, I think in a recent study, 27% of the employees in the industry were less than 35. So 27% less than 35 years, that means that the population in the insurance industry is quite old, I would say, from an average perspective. So how do you again transform and attract the best talents? You need to attract new skill, young talents, and for that, you need to make the industry maybe more attractive, more innovative, at least to show them how innovative it is and the good story of the insurance industry, the purpose of the insurance industry, because I think maybe the industry doesn’t communicate enough on all of that. So that is going to be quite critical tomorrow for ensuring you attract the right talents.

So again, in a nutshell, an environment which is difficult to navigate through and certain with a lot of positive aspects coming, but also some negative ones, the need to grow and with a lot of opportunities to innovate more, to propose new products, the risk landscape is changing, so you need to propose solutions and new solutions to address the new problems. And also, partnerships and ecosystem is something important. Even though we also mentioned in our report that on the life side the partnerships with banks may be a little bit more difficult in the coming few years because the Danish compromise, which is giving quite some advantage for the banks to have an insurance business from a capital perspective, is now permanently included in the new banking regulation for capital. So that may push banks to develop more their insurance business themselves rather than partnering, but still there is opportunities to partner and of course to be part of ecosystem.

And finally, the need for transforming through technology and talent workforce. I think that’s certainly the most difficult thing to do considering the legacy system in the insurance industry, but no choice to embrace all those changes and to be also a child in the way you transform and not trying to do a big bank but rather to adapt, and on a quick way, your platforms. I will stop there for this overview and give the floor to Jen who can focus more on what does that mean for the mutuals based on the report we released two months ago, now three months ago, to Jen.

Jennifer Baziuk:

Thanks Isabelle, and thank you Ben for giving Isabelle and I the opportunity to be here today. Many of you may know that in 2021, we launched our first version of the EY Global Mutuality Report, which was also our first opportunity to collaborate together EY and ICMIF in our partnership by sharing the results in a similar webinar as we’re doing today. However, with this report in 2024, we’ve been able to enrich our results through our continued partnership with ICMIF, and I’m pleased to share the details with the group today. I think it’s important to highlight that it is our belief at EY that the cooperatives and the mutuals do play an important role in the future of the insurance industry, and more importantly, that we believe that they can provide leadership with your relentless focus on balancing profitability, as well as rooting that with a long-term purpose led strategy. And so, we’ll jump into the report.

So the report primarily covers the findings of EY’s most recent research where we had the opportunity to leverage not only ICMIF members, but EY insurance clients around the globe to be able to give you a snapshot view of the current mutual insurance landscape, as well as highlighting the mega trends and major business drivers that are shaping the market today. In the report, we do outline in more detail these forces, including the mounting cost pressures, intensifying regulatory scrutiny, rising customer expectations, and the need for digitisation and capital strategies for investing growth. And you would’ve seen Isabelle share this at the conference in Argentina last year. We’ve also provided in the report some recommended actions for mutuals who are looking to balance their traditional purpose with the imperative to maintain financial strength. And as Isabelle just shared an updated view of many of the mega trends and business drivers from our global insurance outlook, I’m going to spend the time covering in more detail some of the recommended actions from our mutuality report.

So starting with enhancing engagement models, and this is really focused on how to maximise the benefits of mutuality for members. So considering what is the best allocation of profit return, looking at how you can enhance your value proposition through things like loyalty discounts, what are you doing with dividends or are you issuing dividends, education and community programmes. We’ll also look at upgrading technology infrastructure as a foundation for innovation, especially as we see exponential growth in new solutions, as Isabelle mentioned, underpinned by data digital world and generative AI, which is poised to play a major transformative role in the industry. Next would be championing leading practises for cost management and optimization. And so, we’ll talk about how can you help your teams move to leaner and more flexible cost structures while making sure that you protect the mutual business model and deliver on the promise to be there for your members in their time of need.

The fourth is looking at how do you improve upon your portfolio of offerings? So understanding how digitisation and personalisation and loss prevention will help meet the needs or the ever evolving needs of your members. And then lastly, looking at the employee and employee value proposition, ensuring that you can retain an upscale talent while attracting younger workers to win the war on talent. And I know some of this might sound very repetitive of what we’ve heard from Isabelle, but obviously these continue to be key areas where mutuals cooperatives need to focus going into the remainder of 2025 and into 2026. All right, so our first is enhancing engagement models. Our results from the survey tell us that 79% of mutuals we surveyed agreed that mutuality principles will continue to provide a medium to long-term competitive advantage against publicly listed insurance carriers. One executive even noted in our interviews that mutuals must promote differentiation by articulating concrete advantages for stakeholders.

We saw that many executives were sceptical about member value of mutuality, highlighting that members don’t necessarily understand mutuality or recognise its benefits. And annual general meetings alone are unlikely to provide sufficient differentiation to drive success with many of the mutuals reporting that they have lower attendance than ever historically. So one of the questions mutuals need to be asking themselves are, what are the benefits for our member of a mutual insurer? Do we engage sufficiently with them and maximise every interaction that we have? And so, it’s our belief that mutuals should start to explore more strategic questions about their member engagements. And some examples can include, so when you look at your vision or your ambition statements, are these targeted for your current member base or for the member base of the future? And it is likely that the demographics or even the geography of your member base is going to change. And so, are you thinking about that today as you reimagine what your vision or your ambition statements need to be?

Could you potentially even see a change in your product offerings? Do you have an increase in commercial members versus personalised members? Lots could change. And so, to what extent does your core business model need to adapt in order for you to be able to meet the future needs? And you should also be increasing focus on innovation and what potential products, coverages, distribution, or partnerships are going to be needed for you to be able to achieve that. The next, and Isabelle talked about the exponential growth in AI, but does this create new opportunities for you as well, or new demands for products like AI liability risk, and how are you responding to that for your clients of today and for the future? But the more challenging question I think mutuals need to ask themselves through the lens of mutuality is how is your membership benefit capital being allocated today? And could this capital be allocated in a more optimal way to drive benefits for members or increase your member base?

And so, the varying approaches is what we heard from many of the mutuals around how profit or dividends are being applied. Is it time for you to reevaluate your own approach? Have you considered looking at new pricing or loyalty discounts for your member base? And then when you think about some of the community initiatives, charitable giving philanthropy work that you’re doing, does this also align with your member base of the future? Do your campaigns focus on the right brand awareness and giving you the right landscape that you need to be able to connect your member base of the future with the work that you’re doing in their communities? And maybe the last question I’ll say under the support of enhancing your engagement models is asking the tough question to yourself about to what extent do your members truly value being a member versus a customer?

And so, what is the perceived value that they receive as a member of a mutual or a cooperative, and what can you do to better promote that understanding within your member base? And so, we strongly believe that mutuals can continue to differentiate through member engagement and deeply exploring your member base today or tomorrow is going to help you understand what is important for you to focus, where to focus your effort, your engagement, and your capital. So next is the continued focus on technology infrastructure. And Isabelle did speak about this in detail in response to the third point in the earlier portion of the session. And this is likely to come as no surprise as many have been on the journey to modernise their legacy platforms, and many mutuals are still contending with the relentless advance of technology and the constant growth of data volumes alongside rising customer expectations for a more digital robust experience.

And so, stock carriers, however, are still facing the same challenges. This is not unique for mutuals and cooperatives, but in general, they have been the leader, and they have invested more and are farther along on their digital transformation journeys than many of the mutual and cooperatives. We are seeing some of the larger mutuals investing in AI and other digital programmes, both to digitise their operations but also meet consumer expectations. And digital self-service is a continued or common priority that we’re seeing across many of the mutuals. But there are also a lot of concern around losing the personal touch with the implementation of digital self-service. And so, digitisation and automation journeys are going to vary between the mutuals, but we do see that P&C carriers are typically emphasising the focus on low and no touch service options across multiple channels in line with their customer’s demand, while life mutuals are primarily focused on digitising the agent experience and improving the speed and accuracy of service delivery.

And so, there’s a push towards direct online and self-service tools, but the agent still does remain central to the sales process, especially for some of the more complex products. And so, while many mutuals do not aim to be first movers in technology and innovation initiatives within the insurance industry, it is vital they continue to focus on the evolving consumer trends and expectations. And within the mutual sector, we are seeing evidence of deferring or satisfaction levels are beginning to degrade with demographic groups, especially the younger versus the older. And as Isabelle mentioned, in order to reduce the potential gap in acceleration of solutions, mutuals do need to consider being a first mover versus a fast follower. Moving forward, we will look at cost optimization as the next area. Across the last five years, we’ve seen that mutuals average combined ratios have lagged stock carriers, but approximately 5%. And so, mutuals pay out a higher proportion of claims with an average loss ratio 4% point higher than stock carriers and an expense ratio one percentage point higher.

COVID-19 pandemic seems to accelerate this divergence, and so stock carriers have marginally been able to improve their combined ratios since 2019, while mutuals have seen theirs deteriorate. And in our survey, nearly 70% of the respondents flagged profitability as a significant focus of their strategic priority. So with both expenses and claims losses trending in the wrong direction, it’s no surprise that firms are focused on optimising their cost structures. Conversely, 52% of mutuals surveyed survey plan to increase staffing over the next 12 months with technology underwriting and claims having the greatest growth, and only 10% of the mutuals are planning to reduce headcount. The larger mutuals seem to be more active in cost management versus the smaller size mutuals. In our executive interviews, we revealed a wide range of approaches to address cost management from straight through processing on claims, leveraging gen AI to an expense focus, and in some cases little to no action at all. Commission, partnership costs, agency model exploration, as well as forming partnerships potentially with other mutuals are some of the other examples of how to lower some of their costs.

And with profitability pressures being felt across the industry, it appears that stock carriers have been more successful in managing costs in recent years, while mutuals are right to stand by their principles of taking long term decisions, consideration must be given to actions to drive profitability improvement to protect the long-term interests of their members. And so, as mentioned earlier by Isabelle, it’s important that you begin to plan for the unknown, which starts with having a strong cost base so that you can navigate the uncertainty of what the future will bring. In the next, we talk about enriching the portfolio of offerings, and so we share on the screen three examples through the interviews and the work that we did as part of the survey. And beyond optimising operations and cost structures, many mutuals are looking at upgrading their service offerings to chart a path to continued success.

And so, process digitisation and automation as well as strong data management capabilities are going to provide a foundation so that types of products customers are now expecting can be delivered, like usage-based insurance offerings, risk monitoring based on IoT sensors. The other is going to be focused on ecosystems and how this can help you open up new markets and new customer segments, and provided mutuals develop the right capabilities for seamless and secure connectivity, again, rooted in data and technology, this will be a key area of focus for them. In addition to some of the examples we’ve shown, we wanted to just highlight in more detail the example of the Nippon Life Insurance Company and their partnership with H2O.ai, which really focuses on the member experience and personalisation through efficient services. And so, if we look first at personalised insurance products, and so in this scenario, they’re going to be leveraging AI and ML technologies so that they can now analyse vast amounts of their data to be able to better understand individual member needs and preferences.

And so, this is going to allow them to provide more personalised insurance project and coverage options tailored to their members’ unique needs. The second’s going to be fast and more accurate claims process. So leveraging AI driven automation, they’re going to be able to speed up their claims process time, reduce waiting period for their members by accurately assessing claims and minimising areas. And this also has a dual benefit of standardising payments and reducing leakage. The next will be enhancing their member service. And so, with chat bots and virtual agents, they’re going to be able to provide members with instant and accurate responses, and it’s also going to give 24/7 service. The next is going to be around proactive risk management and profession. So Nippon’s going to be able to use AI to analyse data, to help identify potential risks for their members, but also give proactive advice. And then lastly, they’re going to be able to give seamless and efficient interactions. And so, with the integration of AI technologies, they’re going to be able to streamline various interactions with their members throughout various stages of their relationship with the carrier.

And then lastly, we focus on enhancing the employee value proposition. And so, in recent years, the insurance industry has seen a drastic change in its talent outlook, which is very common in many other industries, but there are warning signs flashing that this industry needs to upgrade its skills and find new ways to attract younger workers. Isabelle talked about this and the risk of the ageing workforce, and our survey reinforced this message with many mutuals also facing an ageing workforce dilemma with people retiring from the insurance workforce at a greater rate than those are joining it. One recent survey that we had done found that 4% of millennials who now make up 50% of the workforce say that they’re interested in insurance. And so, while the talent gap is persistent, mutuals have somewhat bucked the trend to some extent as they shared with us in their interview survey results that they historically have seen high retention rates relative to stock carriers. And only about 40% of those that we surveyed said that they’re finding it easy to attract and retain talent.

And so, beyond their commitment to ethics, we’ve seen that mutuals have offered employees purposeful work, and so many employees do feel a sense of pride. And we need to be able to capitalise on that as we attract more into our workforce. And I’ll leave you with one executive who told us that employees cite public perception as a pull factor in attracting works. And so, mutuals need to capitalise on all the great work that they’re doing in their communities and the societal impact that they’re having. And so, maintaining an appropriate skilled and motivated workforce is going to get more challenging in the next decade, and mutuals need to look at how they’re going to upgrade their employee value proposition.

And so, that gives you in a rapid 10, 15 minutes a recap of where we see recommendations relative to some of the drivers and megatrends we reported in our mutuality report. And I’ll just conclude, Ben, to say that mutual and cooperatives do play a critical pillar of the global industry. And as Isabelle and I have mentioned in our previous opportunities to speak with this crowd, that we do believe that the mutuals can provide leadership to the industry as we face obstacles and challenges in the future, but more importantly, remain focused on providing protection to individuals, families, businesses in the communities that they serve. Thank you.

Ben Telfer:

Amazing. Thank you so much, Jennifer. Thank you, Isabelle. Thank you for covering quite a lot in just a short amount of time in terms of what’s on the outlook for the insurance industry, for the rest for the following 12 months, and also highlighting some of the key findings from a very comprehensive survey. I do have a few questions for you, and hopefully there’ll be an opportunity for people to send in questions and I can pose them to both Isabelle and Jennifer. And if you’d like to know more about the scan results, please do get in touch. We can pass those questions on to the executives at EY. Just a couple of questions I’ve got already. Jennifer, let’s just start with you. You covered cost optimisation there. What are you seeing from other players in the insurance market in terms of cost optimisation exercises they’re currently undertaking?

Jennifer Baziuk:

Thanks, Ben, for the question. Cost optimisation is definitely one of the areas that we’re doing quite a bit of work in the market, not just in Canada, but around the globe. The approach that we’ve been taking with our clients is first we come in and we understand the market in which they’re operating. We spend time doing a thorough assessment of what their current capabilities are and start to look at the maturity and where they are looking to be in the future. And as I mentioned as my talk tracks through the last five sections, is really about understanding your member base of the future. And so when you look at your current capabilities, it’s important to understand where you want to go.

And why this is important is because you can then start to prioritise where your investments are and start to understand where you need to focus to drive straight through processing, looking at where you’ve got opportunities to look at your target operating model, how you want to interact with your clients, and focus your investments on the areas that are going to drive the capabilities to meet what your member-based demands are in the future. And this really is starting to help organisations realise that they are right now spreading themselves too thin and investing in many aspects of their business, not necessarily focused on what they’re trying to achieve in the future.

Ben Telfer:

Thank you, Jen. A question for Isabelle related to the protection gap is, a term that we’ve probably heard about for many years and potentially more associated with emerging markets, but obviously we’re seeing now big gaps in protection, especially in recent natural disasters, the recent wildfires across California, one example of that. How do you foresee this going in the future? Is it something that you think’s not limited to certain markets and it’s something that potentially could impact every single country across the world?

Isabelle Santenac:

Yeah, on this protection gap, and in particular from the climate change, we have seen over the last at least two or three years, insurers and reinsurers speaking a lot about discipline in underwriting, which clearly means that they exited some of the risks and in particular on the climate change aspect. So, I think the difficulty today is to ensure that with climate change risk increasing, people will still have insurers protecting and covering their assets. And you can imagine that in some part of the world, because of the increasing risk from climate, and California is a good example, it becomes uninsurable at affordable conditions.

So, I think we can just recognise that, but then what do we do and how do we help people still living in some part of the world, certainly with much more to do on prevention and risk mitigation? Because otherwise there will be no option than having people living with no insurance, so self-insuring themselves in some part of the world. I think there is really an urgency to have public private partnership reflections on how to provide better coverage, but also how to have better prevention in order to reduce significantly the cost of the risk.

Ben Telfer:

Thank you very much, Isabelle. I think we’re at the time limit there, so thank you so much for both of you joining us today. And the report that Jen mentioned and presented to is something that all ICMIF members have access to. You can get it through our knowledge hub and on our website, as she mentioned, it’s a survey over a hundred insurance executives with more in-depth interviews as well. And there’s been great insights there in terms of the state of the global mutual and cooperative insurance industry and some key actions and recommendations for the future. In terms of other, with webinars, you can go online, and you can see some of the upcoming ones we’ve got in the next couple of months, as well as watching over 140 existing webinars that you can watch on demand. And again, you can get those all through the ICMIF knowledge hub as well. So, thank you again for joining us today, and a final thank you to Isabelle and Jen. Hope everyone’s well and enjoy the rest of your day. Goodbye.